Robert Reeves joins me after a 2 year gap to discuss bringing DevOps practices to the database world. I also cover Zoom’s amazing quarter, the end of PhoneGap, the end of the Beatles, and the end of WW2 (in Japan).


Sequence 01_1 Chris Ward: [00:00:00] Welcome to the weekly squeak your weekly geeky, squeak with me Christian Chella. And hopefully you can now see me. I was hoping to have it last week, but it didn’t quite work out. I’m still tweaking a lot of things. Um, I have acquired some lighting. So I’m not obviously using it right now, as you can probably tell by my slightly dark demeanor, um, that I’m hopefully setting that up the next week or so. [00:00:30] And then subsequent videos, you will see me much more, clearly much, but I now have a lovely boom mic up here. You can’t see it, which is the right thing. Which just what I want, if you can’t see the microphone, um, my camera’s down here. I still want to position that I actually have a choice of two recording locations. [00:00:50] I’m still trying to figure out I’m recording from home right now and trying to set up actually to mostly record in my office. But, um, yeah, the background is not that interesting. The side of the room is actually much more interesting, but, um, Not ideal for setting up recording. Unfortunately, anyway, enough of that, um, this issue, I always call it an issue. [00:01:15] This episode, this video, this podcast, this newsletter. I have, um, a repeat interview with someone who I spoke to about two years ago. Robert Reeves, when I last spoke to Robert, he was working at Datical. Now he’s working at Liquibase they’re the same company, just, just in case you’re wondering, uh, Datical rebranded or acquired, merged with became part of a whole bunch of different things. [00:01:43] We covered off in the interview with Datical and Desicol is about kind of bringing DevOps practices to databases and specifically database administrator. Can we talk about that a bit later? He w we do have video for those of you watching on video. He is extremely well lit. It looks very, very good. And I was still experimenting at the time. [00:02:03] I look pretty terrible, but anyway, it’s early days with my video right now, but I think this bit of video is fine, but first, before we begin here, art, my links for the week I have, I’m kind of a. A small selection this week. Um, and actually three of them are all from, Oh, no, two of them. Sorry. Two of them w in an M sometimes look similar when you’re looking at a 16 by 16 pixel fabric. [00:02:32] So we’re going to do two from wired first, actually specifically wired UK. Most of the time, whenever I am mentioning wide reads, I subscribed to the UK newsletter, although I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of content here. So the first is from Victoria Turk. I think she’s still the editor of a wide UK, um, about zoom took over the world. [00:02:53] This is what, what happened next. Um, and she’s mostly referred to this is from August, but she’s mostly referring to a, uh, an earnings call in I in June, the very beginning of June. And it gets zoom has been, zoom has almost personally become a word like Googling. Um, we had the visit used to be Skyping. I think. [00:03:17] Um, and lots of people are now using zoom even that they never knew it existed, but a lot of us know it’s existed for some time. In fact, I’m sure I mentioned it here in this article, but zoom has existed for, Hmm. At least five or six years, if not longer, but got plumbed into the spotlight in the current. [00:03:40] Um, Situation, of course not ready for it in the slightest and had to adapt and grow and change very, very quickly. And actually, I think they did an admirable job on that front. They did adopt a top adapt very quickly. Um, The interesting thing with zoom is it has a lot of good features. Yeah. If you pay some other platforms are better. [00:04:00] If you do things for, if you get, if you don’t pay, um, I have been discussing, this is I’m trying to do video interviews with people. Um, audio is already a problem, but tools like audio hijack and Zencaster have helped you do that. Sometime a capturing video of people is quite difficult. Zoom can do it quite well if you pay, um, this is a. [00:04:22] Problem. I’m still looking into the solution. I’m still looking dissolve as you will probably see from my video interviews over the next few weeks. But, um, I guess this article is sort of a, uh, coming of age, a full stop. I’m not really sure what it is, but it’s, it’s kind of a. A recap of what’s happened to the company in the past year. [00:04:46] And actually let’s look at some numbers here. Um, in April they had over 300 million daily meetings, which, um, is up from December, 2019 at 10 million. It has not breakdown. I don’t think how many of those were paid accounts, but if we look at the numbers again, um, caught it in April the 30th, 2020 total revenue. [00:05:10] Uh, this is a quarter of 328 million, 169% increase, but 300 million at when we got, um, well, 300 million daily meetings that I think starts to show that not everybody is paying. And of course that’s also the way it works. Not everybody pays in our company, you know, there’s one person pays and other people get it for free. [00:05:32] That kind of thing. I’m interested to see some more specific metrics about how those relate to maybe. Um, and it also talks about companies like get lab who I’ve spoken to a few times who have always been remote. I’ve worked remotely for the past at least four years, I think. Um, it’s not particularly unusual to many. [00:05:55] Um, and a lot of us who’ve witnessed other people doing it have kind of like. Welcome to the party you folks. Anyway, um, and this is an interesting article, just wrapping up kind of, uh, where they have got to and where they will go to next. And actually this feeds off nicely from an article that was also on wide, uh, dot, which I think I covered in last week’s weekly squeak, um, about. [00:06:24] How the, it was like one of those careful what you wish for moments. Lots of people always saying, Oh, I really want to work from home. And now you have no choice. People are kind of saying actually I’m good. It wasn’t quite what I expected it to be. Um, and there is a, an articulate story and interview here with, um, , uh, who’s from Harvard business school. [00:06:48] It also talks about, he’s also been one of these people who was an early proponent of working from home and is now, or was always pregnant. Think about it. I think came over even being the same person who was interviewed in the last article, actually. Um, yeah. And. There’s a lot of discussion here. If they’re competitors, Cisco WebEx is still popular at the spine, really do not like Cisco WebEx and very rarely find anybody who does, which is strange. [00:07:16] Teams is catching up, who we’ll meet is catching up, um, and many others, but still zoom still seems to have this, uh, this mind share. Anyway, the recapping there, the quarter that they probably never expected to have, have a read of this article from Victoria tech. And, uh, yeah, I’d love to hear your thoughts. [00:07:38] Um, do you like zoom? Um, do you hate the fact that people use it to mean having a video call? Um, do you hate that people, sometimes you have on telegram or WhatsApp? And you’re just speaking to one person proposed, let’s have a zoom call when you’re kind of like, we can also just talk on zoom or WhatsApp. [00:07:56] We don’t have to. And coincidentally telegram just announced finally, video calls, um, you know, using video conferencing software for a one-on-one chat about life is maybe overkill. I dunno. Anyway, um, tell me your thoughts on zoom. Tell me your thoughts on the article. And I’d be interested to hear. Um, you can probably talk to me on zoom if you want. [00:08:19] But, uh, most of my office hours is actually done through beet [00:08:25] next, another article from wider UK, from Sean Williams about the current protests and the technology relating to them in Belarus. I was actually in Belarus, possibly tell me about this time a year ago. Actually I’d have to double check, but it was definitely summer. No, that was warm and sunny. Might’ve been slightly like that. [00:08:45] I can’t entirely remember. And they do call Bellaruse Europe’s Lastic Pater to ship. It’s a very strange place. It reminded me a lot of Singapore. That’s very clean and very ordered. And this is because it’s basically a dictatorship. And if people do anything slightly wrong, then they’re put on, um, sort of community service to clean the streets and things like like that. [00:09:05] So there’s this odd kind of thing that a lot of foreigners spot is actually something that. Irritates locals. They discovered because the reasons it’s a Cleveland audit are not pleasant ones. And then thanks to the, uh, current, um, resident, I think, um, I don’t know what he’s calls himself, but Alexander Lukashenko, um, claiming he’d won the latest round of elections and he’s been leader for 26 years. [00:09:35] Um, despite the opposition leader, surging in popularity and actually her origin story is quite fascinating. Um, she sort of came out of nowhere to become a very popular opposition leader. She’s now, currently I think. In exile in Lithuania, Lithuania is very, very close and of course is part of Europe. In fact, the flight from who only has two minutes is 30 minutes, which was an insane flight, but as a certain passport holders, that’s the only choice you have actually. [00:10:03] Anyway, that’s another story. Um, I talk about telegram, subtle connection. I made there between the two posts without even realizing I’m using telegram a lot, which is interesting because telegram, I think is mostly. Sort of Russian created and a lot of, uh, the protests were around, um, Lukashenko is kind of, well, not necessarily his Russian connections, but, um, he is pro more pro Russia than the opposition. [00:10:30] I think, I don’t know this, it gets kind of muddy just because you’re pro or anti Russian doesn’t necessarily equal, like. The current leadership of the opposition or the, the right versus the left or anything like that. It’s a little bit more muddled than that, but yeah, they all tend to telegram. Telegram is quite popular in the sort of Russian ex Russian European diaspora, shall we say? [00:10:52] And the internet was shut down, um, for a period of time blocking lots of things that somehow telegram got through people kept it going somehow. And they were organizing, there was no real person in charge of the protests. Apart from telegram. And I don’t mean that the company was in charge. It was like fairly dynamic groups, just self organizing for protest, which was quite fascinating leading to. [00:11:18] Um, about a hundred thousand people in, um, in Minsk city center. And actually one interesting thing. The article does point out is that, um, there wasn’t so much happening outside of the city centers, which is not that uncommon, but, um, yeah. And, um, where this will, how this will play out with us go, we remain to be seen. [00:11:41] Um, they’re kind of squashed between the EU and Russia, politically and physically and geographically. Um, so how it will play out is quite interesting, but they are actually a very technically minded people, which is why cutting up the internet was such a kind of desperate, uh, act in some respects. I have a lot of very talented engineers. [00:12:03] They’re often an outsourcing destination, but much like Ukraine. Um, they’re very well educated, very smart and often a bit bored with working as outsourcing, um, employees. So turning their minds to other challenges. It’s sort of a, again, like in the same way that in a positive way, that Ukrainian startup scene is buzzing. [00:12:24] I think there was enough motivation plus knowledge in Belarus for this to happen very, very easily and get around blocks in technology from people who don’t really understand how it works. Right. Um, we’ll see how this goes. If you would like a bit more detail about especially how they kept telegram working and some of the other networks, um, have a look, have a read. [00:12:46] Um, tell me what you think, have you been to Belarus? What do you think? What happened next? Um, yeah, I’d love to hear thoughts. Okay. One here from Adobe’s medium. Strange sauce. I know. Um, this is actually kind of basically about the retirement of fun gap nitro. Be phone gap, Adobe phone gap. I’m Apache over this piece of software that kind of broke the mold in bringing cross platform development. [00:13:15] Um, well, initially to mobile, but then it led to things like electronic ideas, like electronic things like that. It’s actually kind of how I got back here into web development, which is why this is made my list of articles, a phone gap, and I Toby phone gap, as it was then was kind of what got me into mobile development. [00:13:32] I used to run a meetup and got me a job as an editor on a mobile website, mobile development website, and kind of a, sort of opened the doors for me being who I kind of am today. So I have a little bit of a soft spot for it, even though I have. Not touched him in years, I’m leaving in 2008. I actually thought it was older than that. [00:13:50] Interesting. But it’s not really needed anymore, I suppose. Um, so if I can get my phone, get billed, the commercial services will be retired in October Cordova will obviously continue to exist. Um, I wonder how many people still use it now with react native and native script and yeah, just plain old JavaScript these days. [00:14:09] I’m not sure. But anyway, I found it quite a, quite an interesting moment in time to see that, uh, it’s time is now over. Okay. Firstly, is something quite different. This is from the ability of the atomic scientists. I have no idea why these posts popped up on my feet. Um, this is actually from 2015, but Ellen Bradbury and Sandra, Blakeslee the harrowing story of the nigga, Saki bombing mission a little bit different. [00:14:34] From what I know he talked about, I know. This has been the subject has always kind of interested me for various reasons. My, my mostly cause my grandfather actually, uh, fall in Burma against the, as it was then against the Japanese, not in yeah, Europe. And he always claims that he was flying away from Japan. [00:14:54] When they drop the bombs, which I not entirely sure if my youthful memory or his old man memory is that’s completely true, but anyway, it’s always been something that fascinated me and why they came to this decision. Looked here a bit of background as to apologize. It has been collection day anyway, but this article is a very long and fascinating report arch back on some of the people from on and on some of the people involved. [00:15:22] In the neck of Saki bombing mission, not the Hiroshima one. And just how, and it never ceases to amaze me how this is the case in so many times how haphazard it was, how ramshackled it was, how it nearly didn’t work, how it nearly failed dozens of times and these sorts of things. And some would argue maybe it should have, but who knows what? [00:15:43] Um, Well, that could have led to anyway. Um, they still had, is he an atomic weapon? If the planet crash or something like that, it would have potentially caused just as much damage. So, yeah, it’s quite interesting. Um, And you almost have to remind yourself at the end of the article, like what it led to sometimes, because it almost sounds like a boy’s own comic at times in his article. [00:16:07] But of course it led to a lot of destruction, which we should not forget, but still if, uh, these sorts of moments in history interested you in the kind of reality of them, then have a rate. Okay. Ending on something slightly lighter. I don’t know. This is actually from rolling stone, Rob Sheffield. Um, this is about the final days of the Beatles. [00:16:34] Yes. Um, mostly relating to the fact that I did not realize this Peter Jackson is, um, making a film based on a lot of footage from the final days of the Beatles. I think footage that was never released or was released, but no one ever really saw it slightly unclear, um, which I kind of look forward to watching. [00:16:53] And it talks about it’s kind of another case of, you know, like a story that you kind of know without knowing the details and when you know the details you realize. How much is obstructed in, um, in kind of history of sometimes, and that things are not always what they appear to be. You know, um, you think that things come to a crashing end, but they rarely do. [00:17:15] They come to a kind of stumbling, stumbling. And, and the sort of last months, years of the Beatles were almost like that. And it’s something that the article reiterate over and over again, because they were still a group of friends, but they just could not seem to work with each other anymore. And they were kind of holding onto these friendship. [00:17:33] But didn’t really know why, and they would annoy each other and they couldn’t seem to create what they wanted to anymore, but they still kind of liked each other and just sort of, and then you had external parties. I don’t want to get into the whole adage of the wives, ruined it and this kind of thing, but other people in their lives now as well, changing the way they, uh, activity each other. [00:17:54] Um, And yeah, just some of the, again, I suppose, like this band, that at the time, and for a very long time, and then still are such an influential and large band, just how in those days, especially how amateurish it kind of all was and how they were still real people. Um, and, um, yeah, the reality of, of, of a situation like this, and I think an interesting factor would have to remember with the Beatles is that. [00:18:19] As successful as they were, they were not as successful as they could have been. Have they come now kind of thing, because a lot of the vehicles for that level of fame and success didn’t really exist yet, and artists didn’t know how to handle it, and managers would rip you off and all this kind of stuff. [00:18:33] And this plays a lot into the story too. Um, but yeah, even if you don’t like the Beatles, it’s still just kind of a fascinating. Final days coverage of, I guess, a group of people you think, you know, every story has been told, but there’s still kind of more details you can, you can find and can still find quite fascinating. [00:18:53] I look forward to actually watching this movie. I think some of the things it should be quite fascinating, um, to see, and I think they’ve actually managed to clean it up and stuff like that. So it’s more, um, more palatable and it might’ve been when it was first made actually. Okay. That was my links for the week. [00:19:10] Now here’s my interview with Robert Reeves from Liquibase [00:19:15] Robert Reeves: [00:19:15] pain, [00:19:16] Chris Ward: [00:19:16] pain, pain, [00:19:18] Robert Reeves: [00:19:18] pain is instructive. And, uh, so, you know, I’ve always been a, uh, get the software out the door person. That’s all hyphenated. Um, and so we, we used to call it software configuration management, you know, uh, build master release manager, you know, all this stuff. [00:19:46] And, um, one day I was really struggling. Uh, I was working at an ISV. And they had a product that ran a , so you could date it. Um, and, uh, it ran on WebSphere and WebLogic and our customers would take this ear file and install it and, and have to run a script. And it was a real pain in the ass for me to make sure that my customers didn’t dork up their app server. [00:20:17] Um, and so that, you know, 2005, we started a company called furnace, very early dev ops tool, uh, started the same year, I think, puppet, [00:20:29] Chris Ward: [00:20:29] you know, [00:20:31] Robert Reeves: [00:20:31] um, and, uh, you know, he, it was just one of those things where it would look at the app server and say, okay, what do we need to change and change it? And whether it’s WebSphere, WebLogic, J boss, it would fix it all up. [00:20:45] Cool, you know, and we might up sell that company to BMC and in the last recession, Oh nine, you know, and, uh, but, uh, our, our biggest customer was Walmart and I was hanging out in Bentonville. Uh, again, I’m from Texas and I said, no, I’m going to make sure they’re successful because I speak hillbilly. And I went up there and it’s great. [00:21:13] You got in and you have all these people in Bentonville, Arkansas speaking with Southern accents about really technical stuff. You know, it’s, it’s in Congress, you know, [00:21:27] Chris Ward: [00:21:27] you don’t actually a, I don’t know if you’ve ever saw, um, Horton catch fire. [00:21:32] Robert Reeves: [00:21:32] Oh, no, I haven’t. [00:21:34] Chris Ward: [00:21:34] They’re kind of a couple, I think they’re in. [00:21:38] Some somewhere in the South, but it’s somewhat similar. [00:21:43] Robert Reeves: [00:21:43] Listen to this person, you know, talk about really technical stuff, but it sounds like the next thing they could be talking about is hunting and fishing. You know, it’s, it’s insane, but, uh, I was hanging out there, um, and talking to, to our users, our customers, and they said, man, this is great. [00:22:03] It’s working wonderfully. But what about the database? Are you doing anything about that? And I said, Oh, well, absolutely. It’s on the roadmap. It wasn’t, no, it wasn’t on the roadmap. And, and I said, and I asked him, I said, well, what would you like it to do? Um, and they said, well, look, you know, if we’re accelerating application releases, We need to accelerate the database schema changes because what’s the point and it’s great. [00:22:33] Now we can press a button or the machine just automatically releases after certain conditions are met. Okay. But I still have to, you know, call Jerry and Stephanie, the deviates. Update the database, what’s the point. And, um, so long, you know, spent my time at BMC, uh, and we decided to start Datical to solve this problem. [00:23:02] And, you know, rhymed with radical had dat at the beginning. Sure. Why the hell not, but while we were starting the company we found Liquibase [00:23:12] Chris Ward: [00:23:12] yeah. [00:23:13] Robert Reeves: [00:23:13] And we were like, Oh, we are totally basing on this open source stuff. Even brought in Nathan Vox. the project, a founder to be our chief architect. Cool. This is great, but you know, five, six years go by and we realize that nobody gives a shit about Datical. [00:23:32] Nobody cares. [00:23:34] Chris Ward: [00:23:34] Okay. [00:23:35] Robert Reeves: [00:23:35] So we stopped calling the name. It was stop calling the company Datical because we’re tired of, you know, people would, you know, we talk to people and say, well, you know, Datical does XYZ. It’s wonderful. And they say, well, how does it compare to liquidity? I would have to say, look, we are Liquibase. [00:23:51] Go ahead and use it find out. Um, and there’s a lot of people that use it and I think it goes back to, uh, it was a Martin makos. My SQL CEO long time ago said, uh, some, some people have more money than time. Some people have more time than money. If you have a product that doesn’t help both. You don’t have a product. [00:24:17] And so that’s what we’ve decided to do. We’re we’re going to double down on the open source community. We have a middle tier offering liquid based pro. Then, then we have liquid based enterprise, which is the Datical DB stuff. [00:24:35] CloudBees should have called, called themselves Jenkins years ago. You know, can you imagine Mongo DB calling themselves something else? [00:24:45] Chris Ward: [00:24:45] Not now, but yeah, you’re right. Yeah. [00:24:49] Robert Reeves: [00:24:49] That’s, that’s the thing. We, we looked at it and we were like, no, this is the time we gotta make this change. So yeah. You know, Datical is, is dead long live local base, but nothing’s changed. [00:25:01] Chris Ward: [00:25:01] So just to understand then prior to that, they were basically the same thing or you had a, like a cow. Okay. [00:25:10] Robert Reeves: [00:25:10] So we had the, we had the community open source, free stuff, and then we had Datical DB, which had the rules engine. Enforcing standards, forecast a monitoring console, you know, see status of reports on changes in the state of your databases. [00:25:29] So that was like the big, heavy enterprise stuff and big, big companies, you know, top three banks in the United States. Use it top. For insurance companies, um, obviously fence service bag, that’s where all the data is. Um, and, uh, but you know, we realized that there needed to be something in the middle. And so we took a lot of those features that were in Datical DB and put them into Liquibase and we have Liquibase pro now. [00:26:01] So it has, it has a lot of, uh, the goodies and kind of. Uh, ease of use, you know, little, little, little dessert topping on top. Uh, of course it’s the support, the fact that people have a throat to choke, uh, Oh my God. It’s not working. Um, you know, where stack overflow and, and is it going to cut it? You need support. [00:26:30] Chris Ward: [00:26:30] Okay. So let’s go back a step. Okay. She just checking the last time we spoke was two and a half years ago, so I know no two and a bit years ago, so sometime ago. So I think we can assume that, um, that a lot of people who, uh, will. Won’t have read or listened to whatever I wrote about your last time say, so, um, you, you met, you mentioned it very briefly. [00:26:54] Again, I have limited experience in this kind of world to anyone who comes from the old kind of school way of developing applications, where there was a lot more tied to a database we’ll, we’ll kind of understand this problem of. You know, you have a lot of ways to migrate code now, but then there’s always this sticky point of moving data and, and, you know, certain applications, something like rails for ages had the migrations concept, and now you have kind of other concepts and things like that. [00:27:22] But, you know, that’s still a relatively new ish world to a lot of especially enterprise [00:27:28] Robert Reeves: [00:27:28] isn’t that awful. Instead, it all falls that it’s Oh, you name it? Well, it’s like, you know, uh, um, Um, parents discovering tick talk, you know, it’s like, where are you based? [00:27:42] Chris Ward: [00:27:42] I’m not a parent and I still haven’t discovered it. [00:27:44] So it was like, it wasn’t that my space. No. Um, so you describe a little, maybe a little bit more graciously than me. The, the, the, the people you’re trying to help and yeah, the typical problems they’re trying to solve and the workflow they’re trying to follow and how you fit into that. [00:28:05] Robert Reeves: [00:28:05] Well, I mean, I think, I think you described it just fine, you know, all sorts of new ways of deploying apps, Docker containers, microservices. [00:28:18] Um, it’s all about speeding. Um, the development of new of new features and speeding the deployment of those. So look at Spinnaker. Alright, Spinnaker is black magic. It is amazing. All right, I’ve got my microservices running in a container and you’re going to use, Hey Spinnaker, you’re going to use a, uh, a list of deployment mechanisms. [00:28:50] Rolling blue, green. Yeah, I forget what the third one is [00:28:56] Chris Ward: [00:28:56] a Canary. [00:28:58] Robert Reeves: [00:28:58] Yeah. There’s all sorts of stuff. And then there’s the rollback aspects of it where it’s like, Oh, well, You know, the past three versions, you know, we’re at seven milliseconds response time and this new one you released is at 70, that’s an order of magnitude greater. [00:29:15] We’re going to roll this back for you. Um, and so that is, that’s amazing developers. Aren’t tasked with worrying about the bill and deployment and all this stuff. And we don’t have folks like me, software configuration manager, whatever. You know, the middlemen, um, uh, change control boards and are reviewing all this crap, but you know, we still have it for the database and there’s nothing there that, yeah. [00:29:47] Okay. Databases have state. And yeah, that data’s pretty valuable. We don’t want anything to go wrong. So, you know, the trick is not to, um, have two paths, right? It’s what can we do to get these data changes, data schema, the actual data changes, uh, deployed the same way. The application, the trick is the solution is not to throw more DBHs at the problem. [00:30:20] It’s not to work harder, it’s to work smarter. And that’s what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to take all these learnings from dev ops and agile and, and, uh, you know, distributed architectures and apply it to the database. It’s not hard, but it is, you know, the biggest problem with it is people. You know, they always say dev ops is about culture and it could not be more true when we’re talking about the database. [00:30:51] Chris Ward: [00:30:51] Yeah. So I always like to kind of start with the open source version and work up. So if I was to, to take the open source version, the liquid base, um, community, I think you. Yeah. Um, what would I do? I install it somewhere and then what’s the kind of setup process for me trying to bring that into my workflow. [00:31:15] Robert Reeves: [00:31:15] Well, I think the easiest way to install this is to use a Docker container. Um, so Docker run liquid Bay slash Liquibase. Um, we do have a pull request to make it an official image. So, uh, if you want to weigh in on it, give it a thumbs up on GitHub. I’d appreciate it. But, um, you know, it’s, um, you, you know, what we’ll do is we’ll just run Liquibase and shut down. [00:31:47] All right. So you’ve got to give it some arguments. And let’s just, let’s say, look, the reason why nobody uses Liquibase on day one of a project. [00:31:59] Chris Ward: [00:31:59] Yeah. [00:32:01] Robert Reeves: [00:32:01] It’s very unfortunate, but most people do not buy. A burglar alarm until they’ve been burgled, you know, it’s sad. Um, and, uh, you know, um, but such as life such as humans, you know, we’re, we’re just, you know, big, dumb pleasure monkeys, and, uh, you know, you have, I have a database that’s been around for awhile and you’re fed up with updating it. [00:32:30] So the first thing you have to do is you have to create what they call a change log. This is, um, just a file that represents all the changes that are already persisted to the database. And it winds up becoming a ledger. You know, it’s, it’s kinda like, you know, uh, any kind of financial management software, you know, connects to your bank account, pulls down transactions and you have a ledger. [00:32:57] Yay. Um, great. Now you have to assert. That, that database and the ledger, the change log are in sync. And so the first thing is Liquibase, you know, you run the Docker container, generate change log it’ll spit out this ledger that’s changed a log file. Okay. You do change log sync. And it’ll create a meditational called database change log, and it’ll say, okay, these are all the changes that are in the database. [00:33:30] Great. We’re now done. Check that into source code control. Now you need to make a change, update the change log and add a new table. Add a column, whatever for update a store procedure added at the bottom. And then the next time you run Liquibase, it’ll say, ah, we have a new change. I’m going to try and run that against the database. [00:33:55] If it’s successful, uh, you don’t have any sequel errors, you know, um, blah, blah, blah. It will add a new row to the database change log table and you’re done. That’s it. So generate change, log change, log sync. Get to work. [00:34:18] Chris Ward: [00:34:18] and I mean, how, how smart is that? Like if firstly, I mean, just to, just to understand this, this can work around live data sets as well. [00:34:27] Robert Reeves: [00:34:27] Oh, absolutely. I mean, it needs, I mean the database has to be up and running. [00:34:33] Chris Ward: [00:34:33] Yeah. [00:34:33] Robert Reeves: [00:34:33] You know, they can act and it plays, go fish with the database. Do you have any tables? Yes. [00:34:40] Give them to me and tell me all about them. Uh, tell me about your views. Um, now here’s, here’s the, uh, the challenge though, for some folks. Okay. Liquibase was originally built to be cross-platform. So Nathan actually wrote this like, Oh, sex, because he had a, uh, he was working at an ISB that had an application that would run on sequel server and Oracle. [00:35:14] Same, like what we were talking about before the recording, you know, the previous company furnace, you know, deploying an app to WebSphere and WebLogic. He had the same problem with the database and he was jealous envious of Ruby on rails, but he’s the writing in Java. They, they don’t have that. So it was like, okay, I’m going to write this. [00:35:34] And, and you know, Eric, Raymond, right. It all starts with a developer, has an H they can’t scratch. And solves their problem. Um, so the challenge is, is that like, for example, packages in Oracle that only exists in Oracle land? Um, yeah, we Liquibase open source community. Doesn’t support that. Okay. Um, now you could still do that and you can use a CQL tag. [00:36:08] Or SQL file tag to have your package single script, but it won’t put it in the structured document. Um, that’s where Liquibase pro comes in. So we, we have added extended yeah. Object support in Liquibase pro. Um, we’ve added some clever rollback features. They’re still rollback and liquid based community, but it’s a little far, uh, more feature rich, like, uh, there’s a targeted rollback. [00:36:39] It’s kinda like get cherry pick. Oh crap. I rolled out these 12 changes. Change seven sucks. I need to roll that back. All right. So I don’t have to roll back, you know, 12 to seven and then apply eight to 12. That’s dumb. So we have targeted roll back. Um, and, uh, of course world-class support, um, out of the box integrations that we support, but that’s, um, you know, how smart is it? [00:37:10] Um, damn, it’s been around since Oh six. Uh, the biggest banks, the biggest insurance companies, health Salesforce uses it, the community edition. Um, AWS uses it. I know the route 53 team uses local base. So, uh, Ben good enough for them. [00:37:31] Chris Ward: [00:37:31] Okay. Fair enough. And so you let’s just dig into what gets added as you go up from the community edition. [00:37:36] You mentioned the rollbacks, I’m actually quite intrigued by looking across all the, um, The, the, the paper versions of commercial versions, uh, database drifted detection. [00:37:49] Robert Reeves: [00:37:49] Ooh, well, look, you know, sometimes bad things happen to good databases. Um, and, um, you know, it’s um, so, so I got a nine year old. All right. [00:38:06] And, uh, he is just a force of nature. And, but boy, he is really good about taking care of his things and his toys. However, I’ve seen his classmates and individually, they are wonderful. They are just darling in pathic, wonderful children, but you put them together and they are just awful. Okay. They will tear up anything and the same thing with databases. [00:38:44] All right. You’ve got a lot of people with the ability to change a database. You’re going to have regression to the MI. It’s got to be bad. And so when you have a bunch of people making changes, especially manually. Because they’re human. They make mistakes. They forget, Oh, I forgot to update the other database. [00:39:07] And so you start to have this drift where you have two environments diverge, you might have production, which is locked down and we have a hard core process. And then you might have yes, which a little more restricted, but every once in a while we make changes and then dev, which is. Uh, chaos. Okay. It’s like, like, like Mardi Gras. [00:39:31] It’s a lot of fun, but very messy. Um, and, um, so you need the ability, Hey, who changed this? What has changed? What’s going on? Because with databases it’s really hard. I can’t, how do you tell. What the difference is what is the difference between this table and that table? Now I can do, I can, I can do diffs and stuff like that, but I still got to add a bunch of other tools, do this, you know, a toad from quest. [00:40:04] Okay. You know, um, our friends, that idea, I have tools. They’re great, but I need a human. And our mantra has always been at Liquibase has always been. We don’t sell software. We sell piano recitals, literally games, date night, all the stuff you want to do, but you can’t because you’re stuck dealing with a stupid database. [00:40:29] And so a lot of this functionality exists, but what we’re doing is making it, uh, we’re automating it so that humans can just get out of this and do what humans are really good at, which is solving hard problems, being creative. Not just handling one ticket after another. That’s terrible. It’s so crushing. [00:40:52] It’s awful. [00:40:54] Chris Ward: [00:40:54] Fair enough. Okay. Um, so apart from the, the name change in the past two years, since we last spoke, um, what else have you added any major features that weren’t present then that, um, you’d like people to know about? [00:41:09] Robert Reeves: [00:41:09] Well, we’ve, um, two things. The easy one is no SQL database support. [00:41:15] Chris Ward: [00:41:15] Okay. [00:41:16] Robert Reeves: [00:41:16] Um, and so we’ve really focused on, uh, with the change from Datical to Liquibase the first thing we did well. [00:41:26] Okay. The first thing we did was change the name, but we really wanted to have a focus on building from the left. [00:41:34] Chris Ward: [00:41:34] Okay. [00:41:35] Robert Reeves: [00:41:35] All right. Build from the left, meaning new features and functionality get put into the community edition first, um, that is to reward the community and encourage them to provide new features and functionality, which is exactly what happened with Mongo. [00:41:55] Chris Ward: [00:41:55] Had [00:41:56] Robert Reeves: [00:41:56] some cats just randos. Hey. You want Mongo DB support. We built it. It’s like, what, tell me about this. I’m like, yeah. You know, we work at MasterCard and uh, you know, thought you might want this. Is that, is that cool? And we’re like, ah, yeah. Yeah. And it is so slick. It is awesome. And uh, battle-tested. Yeah. [00:42:21] And so, um, and, and, and also, uh, support for snowflake, you know, cloud native databases, things like that. Uh, Cassandra, um, and so all this stuff’s coming in from the community. It’s wonderful. Um, and, uh, so that is a big focus. So, so we’re going to start, uh, it’s out. You can use it as an extension, uh, but we’re putting it through our testing process, much like red hat does with fedora. [00:42:50] Hey, fedora bleeding, edge free. Tear it up. Um, Oh, your bank might want REL, you might want to throw it to Chuck. All right, man, it’s a little slower, but all this stuff is vetted over in the, uh, uh, consumers, uh, the, the, the community side rather, but that’s all fine and good, but we’ve got something coming out, which I saw the alpha on Friday. [00:43:20] And. It is so slick. Um, so, and if you go to, you can see a little bit about it. A lot of marketing stuff. Um, Brian, nice video from my co founder P with he’s actually showing the wireframes and he recorded. So when he did the wireframes, he runs product, uh, he’s our product leader. And, uh, he took the video first. [00:43:51] Then he shared it with the company immunity first in a talk inside. We didn’t have a blue ribbon community. We’ve really taken to heart, um, get labs, transparency, and really try to model that, uh, or follow that. They’re modeling that. And, um, so what it is is you can have liquid base and it’s already working and that’s great. [00:44:20] We’re happy. Yeah. It’s satisfying. You all right. That’s really cool. Um, but. Yeah, my want to take advantage of the status of reporting in hub. So every time Liquibase runs, it will call a web service and just say, Hey, I did this stuff. This is the state of the database. So we don’t need a connection to the database. [00:44:43] Just Liquibase needs to be able to call out. All right, we don’t need poke holes and firewalls or. You know, no agents are BS like that. All right. So it calls out and it says, I did this all right. Now, of course you got to log in, create a Calcutta name. That’s all you have to do. You add it to your properties file. [00:45:06] Um, and so it knows, um, you know where to put the data, um, then you can log in. You could see what happened. What did some, what what’d you do? Um, and that right there we think is just beyond cool. Just being able, well, I have a website that’s like, okay. And it’s free to use. We’re releasing it. And just go ahead now, you know, you want to take advantage of some other features or you want to use more. [00:45:33] Yeah. You got to pay for it. Kinda like get hub. Yeah. Free reposts. They just gotta be world readable. [00:45:40] Chris Ward: [00:45:40] Okay. [00:45:41] Robert Reeves: [00:45:41] You know? Okay. You want to keep that stuff quiet to yourself. Well, alright. Um, you got to pay for that privilege. [00:45:51] Chris Ward: [00:45:51] Yeah. So it’s sort of a centralized place for, if you, if you imagine your various databases as like get hub repositories, it’s kind of like your. [00:46:00] Your, your get hub or get lab profile page kind of thing. Okay. And I mean, how, how, how extreme with this? Do you want to go? Is it a, something that you’re just testing for customers or is it almost, could it be a kind of. I dunno, database collaboration, project place, like get hub and get lab. I don’t know if that’s even something people want, but yeah. [00:46:27] Yeah. [00:46:28] Robert Reeves: [00:46:28] I, I’m not sure. I, I’m not sure either. Um, there there’s, we’ve got a lot of work to even be included in that Pantheon, but, uh, look at the end of the day. We know that developers are going to solve problems and they’re in charge rightfully so stupid. O’Grady what’s been five years, six years. He wrote that the new King makers. [00:46:56] Chris Ward: [00:46:56] Yeah. [00:46:57] Robert Reeves: [00:46:57] And, um, yeah, developers are in charge. And so, you know, for a while when we started Datical yeah, it was CIO is making the decision and getting an ELA purchase and neuro you know? Yeah. And, and that was fine. Um, you know, going to a lot of meetings, which I do enjoy my sweater and tee shirts and there weren’t suits. [00:47:18] That’s [00:47:19] Chris Ward: [00:47:19] fun. I think they used to it now a bit more, [00:47:23] Robert Reeves: [00:47:23] no, the wacky. Co founder and CTO, but, um, you know, um, what we do, one is look, use Liquibase solve the problem. It’s free if you want to use Liquibase pro cool, great. We got your back. If not, no problem. You know, we would appreciate bug reports, even better pull requests, fix them. [00:47:46] Okay. Um, but that’s fine. You’ve got more time than money. Great. For folks that have more money than time. Okay. We have these offerings at the end of the day. All we want to do is solve this problem for people. We want to automate database schema change. That’s it, whether we, uh, do it, um, either way, whether somebody pays us for the software or not, we’re getting something because of somebody, if it solves somebody’s problem. [00:48:20] Alright, Jerry and Stephanie, they got this horrible, horrible problem and they solve it with Liquibase. Okay. Even if they do with community, they’re going to tell people about it, um, and how maybe they might get certified. We’ve got learned You can get certified for Liquibase fundamentals, put it on your LinkedIn profile. [00:48:43] Yay. Um, but that tells other people about it. All right. And, um, and so we’re okay with that because developers are a little chatty. I don’t know if you notice they like talking about what they’re doing. [00:48:57] Chris Ward: [00:48:57] It’s funny to a certain degree. Yeah. [00:49:01] Robert Reeves: [00:49:01] Well, when it’s working out, when things are bad or not, so chatty [00:49:05] Chris Ward: [00:49:05] such a dope. [00:49:06] Sorry, go ahead. No, no, please, please finish what you’ve got to say. [00:49:10] Robert Reeves: [00:49:10] Well, it’s, it’s at the end of the day, um, we’ve got to have. Uh, we got to take care of both sides of the house. And so, um, where we go with liquid based hub, uh, I don’t know, no that it had a lot of value in, it has a lot of value in Liquibase enterprise running in somebody’s data center. [00:49:32] So we decided to Salsify it and we’ll see where it goes. Um, but, um, you know, Th th the learning stuff we have is free. The product is free. Hub is going to be free. Um, Go ahead and try it out. What, what, what do you have to live? And, and that’s, that’s kind of where we’re taking our approach. We have totally gotten rid of, uh, this enterprise sales model. [00:49:59] We still have salespeople, of course [00:50:03] Chris Ward: [00:50:03] not having to fill in a form kind of thing. Yeah. [00:50:06] Robert Reeves: [00:50:06] Yeah. But it’s like, they’re not going and taking people out to dinner. No, they’re not getting on, you know? And so what are they doing while they are, and to be trusted advisors, they’re working with executives, you know, and that’s what our enterprise sales team that’s where the real value is. [00:50:23] Hmm. It’s not about taking somebody to top golf. And, and, and picking up a beer tab or something, steak dinner, that’s stuff, the value, the value is, Hey, I’m going to help you executive person I’m going to help you leader be a leader. [00:50:39] Chris Ward: [00:50:39] Yup. Okay. So apart from hub, just to wrap up, is there, are there any other features that you’d like people to know about happening in the next six months or so, or when will hub be kind of on general release? [00:50:53] I guess. [00:50:55] Robert Reeves: [00:50:55] November 21st. I’m sorry, November. Screw that September. Okay. I got that wrong. [00:51:02] Chris Ward: [00:51:02] Sorry. At about six weeks. [00:51:04] Robert Reeves: [00:51:04] Yeah. Two weeks debate. Is there? Um, I don’t know how we’re going to go, but if you, um, blow us up on Twitter at Liquibase, um, I’ve got a feeling that our community team could hook you up. [00:51:23] Chris Ward: [00:51:23] Cool. Okay. It’s not [00:51:25] Robert Reeves: [00:51:25] just you, but the listeners, anybody look, we want more and more people to look at it. We are going to limit the, uh, the beta initially. Uh, because we want to give the folks that have contributed to Liquibase and the believers, they, uh, we, we want to show our love and affection to them [00:51:47] Chris Ward: [00:51:47] and let them know, you probably know the product better anyway, so yeah, yeah, [00:51:50] Robert Reeves: [00:51:50] yeah. [00:51:51] We would like to really focus on folks that know Liquibase, but want to learn HOD as opposed to people that want to learn Liquibase and hub. [00:52:01] Chris Ward: [00:52:01] Yup. Yup. Okay, cool. Okay. Good to hear what you’ve been up to. Um, and the, the no SQL support and things like that is also very interesting. I think that’s, uh, where we’re a lot of people are putting their data these days, so, [00:52:17] Robert Reeves: [00:52:17] Oh, absolutely. [00:52:18] And it’s, it’s a nightmare. I mean, when you, you’ve got, you know, let’s talk about Monga, you’ve got all these Jaison docks and, um, you’ve got, uh, an update to the application. Maybe you’re a chucklehead and assume that every user in the, you know, every document represents a user and users only have one mailing address or one physical address. [00:52:42] Chris Ward: [00:52:42] Yeah. Yeah, no, I remember these problems in the past. Yeah. [00:52:47] Robert Reeves: [00:52:47] Even though there’s no schema, there still needs to be changes. [00:52:51] Chris Ward: [00:52:51] Yeah. Everyone should check out the, uh, assumptions that developers make. Um, Various repositories are good for her. It’s like, this is cool. Great. Thank you very much for your time and thanks for being so, um, So visually interesting. [00:53:11] Yeah. [00:53:15] By my test buds, and this has made me realize I’ve been the most boring, looking personal to the cool both times [00:53:20] Robert Reeves: [00:53:20] Haiti. It’s not a contest, you know, [00:53:26] you’re doing great. I’m proud of you. [00:53:30] Chris Ward: [00:53:30] That was my interview with Robert Reeves of liquid base. So for me, um, I have been working on my street. My streams are now in progress ahead. Part one venture where I played games, solo ex Novo came out on Monday. You can find that on Twitch slash solo venture or on my YouTube channel, cello. [00:53:52] And it is a city building game part one part two should be coming in the next few days. And on Twitch slash DX, P O S E exposé. That is, and again, on the YouTube channel, you can find my, uh, walk walkthrough of the developer experience for a document node, kind of a writing tool. I went down a slightly different path this episode, but I wanted to try it. [00:54:19] Aside from that. And I have been interviewing people for keep calm this week. So some of those will be coming out soon. I’m not quite sure how I’m going to cover the event, covering remote events, online events. It’s really not that compelling. I must admit. So I’m not entirely sure what I’m going to do yet. [00:54:34] We shall see. Um, and I think that’s better for now. Um, a few other things to the pipeline. But for now yesterday, if you enjoyed the show, please subscribe on YouTube. Please subscribe for my podcast. Please subscribe to my newsletter, please rate review, share wherever you have seen or heard this and keep an eye on Christian for more updates. [00:54:56] And until next time, thank you very much for joining me.