In this episode I speak with Laszlo Toth, Nikolai Astrup, and Dr. Suncheol Gweon from the recent 5GTechritory about the current state, and future promise of 5G. Also in this episode, the Y2K panic, incentivising BitTorrent, Monopoly, tech sexism, and so much more.

Transcript

181219_mixdown Chris Ward: [00:00:00] . Welcome to the weekly squeak. Your weekly geeky squeak with me, Chris Chinchilla. This may be the last episode of the year. I’m not sure. Maybe I’ll have an interview. Look back one. Um, sometime late December before next year. For two weeks time. Was it next week? I don’t know. This gets very weird this time of the year. [00:00:23] Anyway, I am back from travels. I am ready to take a little bit of time off, but, uh, I’ve got a sort of packed episode with links and in a handful of small interviews ready to go for you. So let’s get started. [00:00:39] Firstly, it’s an article on fast company from Harry McCracken, a weird and wonderful look back at the Y two K crisis. And I do actually remember this. Um, my first ever programming jobs, computing jobs were. In about, Oh 98 99 so I do remember just just the Y two K crisis and also the.com bubble bursting. [00:01:03] Just, I think I was like 17 so I didn’t really care too much, but I remember it. I also worked at the millennium dome, the ill fated millennium spectacular in London. That opened on January the first 2000. Uh, and that was probably the biggest crisis difference we did. Anyway, this is a wonderful article looking back at that time and the disasters that we thought were going to happen. [00:01:28] But more specifically the, the literature, the, the fiction and nonfiction books that sprung out around it as well. Whenever there is a crisis, there is money to be made and there was a lot of people who attempted to do so and now they read. Kind of like somewhat ridiculous tales of things that never happened. [00:01:46] So it’s quite a fascinating read back, uh, from, from this, uh, well, well, read article, unless Harry just remembers, well, he’s been doing this for some time, so maybe he just remembers some of these books. But yeah, quite fascinating. If you remember it, even if you do not remember it, if you are, well. Anything less than 20. [00:02:02] Now you won’t remember it. Um, have a look back and, uh, it’s a good, it’s a good, good lesson learned off of how cars usually end up going with computing. I think we, there’s sort of room as we may have similar issues with calendars and things like that. Again. Um, I’m hoping that we have now solved these problems, but if you need a little bit of a reminiscent look back on what we used to do and how things used to be and how people really did not understand computers at all two, three years ago, then have a read and another article that takes a little bit of a look back, but with a market temporary stance is an article from ed bought on Zed D net about how the desktop PC was supposed to die 10 years ago, I think roughly when the iPad was launched and then tablets and, well, I suppose. [00:02:48] Um, tablet like devices all emerged and everybody declared the PC to be debt and whilst maybe an hour, not as big or as popular as they used to be, they are still very much here. In fact, they are starting to experience something of a Renaissance. Why? I think people realize they need the more than everyone thought. [00:03:05] It may be easier to manage. Um, people may be just like the form factor. Maybe you can’t do anything on a tablet, which actually I would agree with. They’re very good. They’re very usable. But for a lot of the work I do, tablets are still not really the best option. Um, I could do it, but they’re not ideal. So this is a, an article around how the PC managed to evolve and keep itself relevant and, and, and keep itself buoyant in sales, I suppose. [00:03:33] And again, how we have a tendency to make, well journalists, I think, which is interesting that both of these articles by journalists have complained about how journalists have a tendency to make big, bold statements that turn out not to be true. And I wonder if that will keep happening and what will be the storage of this year. [00:03:49] We look back on in 10 years time and think. Mm. That didn’t quite happen did it? I, I probably assume there will be a few, but still, uh, if you fancy another trip down memory lane and have a read of this and see how laptops did survive. And it’s mostly things around weight, battery performance, things like that. [00:04:08] A modern laptop is so light in comparison to a laptop from 10 years ago that you barely notice it and you barely notice the difference between a laptop and a tablet. Anyway, so. Enjoy reading on your laptop, and if you have any comments or questions, please let me know on your laptop or your tablet or your phone, whatever you prefer to use. [00:04:28] dot com slash contact a nother poster from their Dean it from Chris on the technically incorrect a column. Yay tick has got his sexism back. This is an unfortunate article. I think something we thought we were trying, we were hoping we were starting to solve things like booth babes and inappropriate stereotype stereotype stereotype station. [00:04:52] I’m not sure if that’s a word. It is now. And massaging nation. If that’s also not a word, I’m not sure, uh, of women in tech, uh, things like booth babes yesterday already mentioned, I know Kate covered this when we used to do the podcast together some time ago, and for the most part, things got a little bit better. [00:05:09] But then in the past few months, we’ve seen some. Rather poor examples of it happening again, and to be honest with you, I think these are not isolated examples. There are plenty of examples like this, the male, female gender stereotype possibly caused by the lack of diversity. But also I think sometimes you use somewhat intentionally to appeal to certain subset of people and also maybe intentionally antagonize sometimes, which is irritating. [00:05:34] But that’s the impression some people want to give. So the examples in this article are. The recent Peloton ad. I haven’t seen this. I. Peloton doesn’t exist here. Um, about a wife being bought this, this smart bike for Christmas and being so happy. Um, and it being somewhat sexist to, because, uh, she wants to lose weight and et cetera, et cetera. [00:05:55] And looking at the video now, it doesn’t really need to, but anyway, that’s by the, by it’s a somewhat, uh, outdated treatment of the whole thing. Uh, women already get enough. Pressure about body image as it is, and having an ad like this bit doesn’t help. It’s not even necessary. People can just want to be fit without having to mention words like that and then make people feel bad. [00:06:17] Although that is of course, how fitness tends to sell, unfortunately not unusual. And then there’s this rather peculiar one Escobar. Um, this is actually something I should have covered a little bit further back actually. Roberta Escobar, the brother or infamous drug Lord, release a new smartphone, and I mean, he’s the brother of a drug. [00:06:38] Lord died and what you had expected to do, but released an ad for his phone with scantily clad women. This is a phone that I think will definitely appeal to a certain group of people, and this ad will probably help that. Um, I don’t necessarily think that the target audience is going to be put off by this ad, but it’s a shame that it has to be that way. [00:06:56] These are just two examples. I’m sure there are plenty more. If you can think of any more, then, uh, well, uh, I don’t know if I want to see them, but it would be interesting to maybe share and shame them if a, they’re more obscure ones. And definitely, if I’m. You’re from a different country, not a Western country. [00:07:12] I know sometimes the sexism in advertising is possibly even worse in other places, but we do not always see it outside of the Western bubble. So I’d be interested in seeing any of those examples of what you think should have been done could be done instead of such a kind of. Obvious and blatant, um, shitty cell, I suppose. [00:07:32] And now hopefully moving forward into the future, leaving behind some of the past, an article on the guardian from Alex Han 20 tech predictions for 2020. I can see everyone’s going to do 20. Aren’t they moving into 20, 20. Oh, well, I think I did seven. I did. I didn’t spot the, uh, the potential marketing bragging rights there anyway. [00:07:53] actually, I quite like some of these. They’re quite different. They’re, they’re different sorts of trends. Under usual you might expect, I guess the most obvious one is number one, the Tesla truck will not ship and it wasn’t even necessarily expecting it to ship in 2020 but that’s his prediction. He also mentioned things like American products, like Google duplex, not coming to Europe. [00:08:11] Again, that does not surprise me. I hadn’t even thought about it, but does not surprise me in the slightest. Generally, we’re fairly left behind here, but also something like duplex. I think we’d. Meet a lot of regretfully, uh, barriers and push back here in Europe advertising, coming to smart speakers. I’m actually surprised this is not the case already. [00:08:28] I don’t think smart speakers have been as popular as everyone anticipated, but still, if there is a spate of advertising, it will come. So expect that maybe in 2020 nicely connected into my interviews for this episode, five G will become meaningful. Uh, I haven’t got around yet to do my rat up of 50 take a tree, but this is definitely something that was mentioned quite a lot, trying to make five G meaningful to people, not just this big thing that is coming that people don’t really understand, but why should they care? [00:08:59] How would it be useful to them on a day to day basis? A lot of the five G selling so far has. Been more on the side of appealing to business and implementers, which is fine. That makes sense. But to, to get a momentum behind it, I think the public down is to understand why it will be useful to them. And then two more that I will pull out is, uh, related to one of the earlier ones that Alexa’s growth will probably slow down. [00:09:22] And I think that’s relating to maybe we’re reaching seemingly market saturation for the smart speakers that people want or don’t want. And that VR will have a second comeback, mostly thanks to. Musty things to the new half-life game. I haven’t really followed VR. I find PR how to use, unfortunately, because of my glasses I wear and my poor vision if I don’t work glasses. [00:09:42] So I haven’t really experienced it very much, but I think it’s also one of those technologies that maybe has not lifted off as much as people would have hoped. So we will see VR has been slated for death and Revere duration many, many times. So. On the note of best of roundups. I am publishing my predictions for 2020 for open source or design. [00:10:04] He should come out hopefully in the next week or so. It’s not out quite yet, but it should come out soon. So look out for that. Now getting a little bit into crypto space, um, I have always thought in the back of my mind that there is one technology, one project on protocol that has existed for some time. [00:10:22] That was always a bit like blockchain. But somewhat goes unnoticed in the discussions of blockchain. That being Bit-Torrent, a peer to peer, mostly decentralized technology that a okay was used for a variety of means that shall we say, just like blockchain, but, um, albeit was popular, still is popular. Um, and this article from John backers on a medium, uh, he goes into. [00:10:50] Would the experience of Bit-Torrent be better if there was a token incentivizing people to be good sharers as opposed to what most people do, which is, um, download something, they vanish again. Whereas actually the network relies on people to stick around and continue to share. It’s an interesting insight. [00:11:07] I don’t know if it would make a difference, um, if it would to be gamed and he covers some of the potential flaws in his ideas, but also it’s probably more that the protocol is too well established to introduce anything. So kind of, um, such a big change into it at this point anyway. But still, it’s interesting. [00:11:25] It’s something I’ve actually thought about quite a lot and how Bit-Torrent relates to blockchain. So interesting to see that someone else was thinking about it too. Continuing on the decentralized bench. Um, this was an article that was widely reported. I am mostly referring here to the one from decrypt. [00:11:40] Um, Hey, blockchain mostly blockchain publication. On how Twitter is creating a small team of individuals to look into decentralizing the platform, which I find quite interesting. A bit like Mastodon, I guess. I don’t know how they would monetize this. I don’t know how this would work. Um, but anyway, interesting to see. [00:11:59] They look at you into it and that Twitter are sort of looking into how they move on from the current iteration. And a guest Soave some of their issues, definitely not all of their issues, but some of them not much detail on this right now, but watch this space could be interesting, even if it’s just a research project to help other people maybe implement a more viable alternatives in the future. [00:12:21] And finally, my tech Roundup, this is an article on the Atlantic. I’m Simone stilts off on a prisoners who’ve learned to code. This is actually quite a nice article. I really enjoyed reading. This is specifically focused around, um, some programs in the U S and around their experiences with Slack, but employing and giving a chance to prisoners who want to learn to code, who have learned to code in prison and giving them jobs. [00:12:46] And in the most part, they’re working out very well actually in them getting offered proper full time, normal people jobs eventually as well, which is great to hear. And having a meaningful existence is always something that will keep, well, not always more likely to keep people kind of from re-offending. [00:13:04] So this is a great article about a, about those programs and I, I’d love to hear more of them. I might actually. Dean to interviewing some of the projects mentioned here too, to find out a bit more about the program, because I think it’s a, it’s one of the great examples when tech companies actually do something very meaningful and very useful. [00:13:22] And advantage people who are often quite marginalized because, um, yeah, I guess getting out of prison, getting out of the institutionalization of it is very, very difficult. So it’s great to see that people give people a second chance in, in the, in the future as it were, not, um, kind of learning skills that are not so useful to someone in getting a decent job and the, in the modern era. [00:13:45] So great read, have a Richter and I will attempt to get more detailed with. Some of the people mentioned this article in the future. Now an article on wired from will Beddingfield. This was actually something a, I read this Boston flying, probably not the best idea, but it’s story about how physics explains, although there’s other reasons as well, why everyone’s kind of fear or not everyone’s fear. [00:14:09] One of people’s fears about someone wildly trying to open the airplane doors in flight or not actually possible. There have been a couple of recent examples of people attempting to do so, usually under the influence of alcohol. Um, but actually as this article details, it’s not possible during a flight. [00:14:28] And we knew he, uh, the calls from the captain to the crew to setting doors to crosscheck, to manual to automatic, etc. They are actually handing over control of the doors to the pilot. I never knew this, so that those can’t even be open to any way. That big handle cannot be moved. Until the pilot disengages that, and actually really the only times it’s possible to open the doors are in takeoff and landing. [00:14:51] So a very small part of a flight. Also physics air pressure means that it would be nearly impossible to open it anyway because of the weight of a different in air pressure. So all these kind of crazy airplane movies are not really strictly very true. So let that reassure you, but possibly more concerning. [00:15:11] I also thought about this as well, actually, the little tiny windows are maybe potential places where a disaster could strike. So yeah. Uh, don’t, don’t, don’t hammer those windows. Not that you’re ever going to, but those little tiny pieces of plastic and glass, ah, vulnerable points. But don’t worry about the door unless you’re taking off or landing. [00:15:33] So sick yourself. Assured or not, as the case may be, by having a quick read of this article, if you’re flying anywhere this holiday season, next in Ashkelon from Kate Walworth on the origins of monopoly. This is the story I have. I already knew actually anti-monopoly the landlord’s game where some of the original versions, I think landlord’s game was the original original of monopoly. [00:15:56] The version we know of monopoly is not the original game. In fact, it is quite the opposite of what the original creator intended designed during the great depression. It was actually designed to help people learn the perils of capitalism, not become petty little capitalists themselves. And when it got sold to the mainstream, not only was else the game twisted in terms of its message, but also the original designer was pretty much blocked out of the picture and next saw next to nothing out of their design. [00:16:26] And in fact. No one even realized this had happened and for many years later, and this is not an uncommon story in the earlier times of patents and kind of a mass commercialization, I suppose people hadn’t really figured out what this meant yet. So it was hard sometimes for people to understand and take advantage of it. [00:16:43] And now the landlord’s game has reappeared, I think anti-monopoly as well. I’m not a hundred percent sure if that’s actually the same thing. Alternative versions of the dreaded game. And as a, as a hardcore game player, monopoly is like a curse word in my community, but still, um, it’s interesting to read the here to history and origin stories of one of the world’s most famous games. [00:17:07] And, uh, I’d be interested to actually play the original to see if it’s any. Better shall we say, unless random was anyone played it. I’d love to hear if you have played anti-monopoly the landlord’s game, let me know. Is it any better? Is it worthwhile putting up with some fluid mechanics to learn the real origins of the game? [00:17:24] I’d love to hear from you again, Kristen chiller.com/contact and finally, British elections just happened. I got way too invested this time. I haven’t actually voted in the country for over 15 years. But it happened to be in the country this time. So I voted, got very disappointed when things did not go the way I wanted. [00:17:41] Actually, they went the way I expected, but not the way I wanted. But one of the flaws with the British system is this first past the post system, which is antiquated and benefits certain parties over others and means that a lot of the time votes are somewhat wasted and do not represent the actual way that people do vote in electorates. [00:18:03] Interestingly, if you use back, there was a referendum to change the AP system. That proportional representation system somewhat like the one in Australia where the system is very different. My also vote, um, and it has its problems, but I kind of much prefer it because of this, this, this way. That gets a, a more broad spread. [00:18:23] And this article on the independent from Adam forest details what the British parliament might’ve been like. Had there been proportion representation and surprisingly, it’s very different. It would have still been a lot of conservative votes, but it would have probably been a hung parliament with more for labor, more for the lib Dems, more for the grains, more for the Brexit party, more for the smaller parties. [00:18:43] Basically. Um, this would have meant a more, um, uh, harder parliament to get policy through, but maybe a more balanced, more nuanced or interesting parliament too. Anyway, this is all pure conjecture because the system is not going to change anytime soon, especially with the conservative government who are the ones that really benefit from it. [00:19:03] So who knows? Anyway. Interesting conjecture. I don’t really want to get too involved in politics right now, but it’s something I’ve often thought about, so it was appropriate that this popped up and I find it quite fascinating. Now, I have three interviews for you from five G tech tree’s event. I was recently at, we’re talking about progress and policy behind 5g. [00:19:26] A lot of these interviews are quite short. The first one especially, and the first one, um, three of us journalists had a five minute interview with Nikolai Astrup, the minister of digitalization for Norway. Um. So firstly, you will hear from two friends of mine also asking questions and you’ll also hear Christian from me, but I thought it included. [00:19:46] Anyway, the other questions were just as interesting. So enjoy that. Second, I have an interview with dr Sanjog, one, um, from, uh, Korea from, Oh, he’s done a lot of things with regards to telecoms in Korea. So that is my second interview. And then finally, the head of public policy for Europe, for the GSM, a, the sort of mobile industry body. [00:20:09] Lazlo. It’s off. So enjoy. Okay. So are [00:20:12] you [00:20:12] Lazlo Toth: [00:20:12] actually involved in startup poetry? [00:20:15] Chris Ward: [00:20:15] Start up, yeah. Start a posting. [00:20:17] Lazlo Toth: [00:20:17] And what do you think are the main things [00:20:21] Chris Ward: [00:20:21] to do in this? What do you, [00:20:24] Nikolai Astrup: [00:20:24] well, I think if we are to achieve the ambitions that we have for digitalization in Norway, at least in the public sector, we need to cooperate with the private sector on the, in order to increase innovation. [00:20:34] Uh, I think we need to evolve the startup community even more and digitalization, all of our public sectors. So I’ve started working on a new program, uh, which is aimed at involving startups more. And, and, uh. And, uh, public, uh, services, uh, in the years to come. [00:20:56] Lazlo Toth: [00:20:56] Are you looking at to [00:20:57] Chris Ward: [00:20:57] add a taxation issues or out with the stock [00:21:00] Lazlo Toth: [00:21:00] options? [00:21:02] Nikolai Astrup: [00:21:02] We have improved the, uh, the stock option. Uh. Taxation system for startups in Norway? Uh, both, twice, actually. Uh, they would always say it’s not good enough, but, uh, it’s at least an improvement. Um, uh, but I think with the public purchasing power that we have, uh, um, the, the fact that we spend about 55 billion euros a year. [00:21:30] Well, public purchasing, uh. Dot is, I think, an important driving force also for startups. So we need to be, we need to buy their products and services, uh, to, uh, help them scale in the future. The problem in Norway, as in Europe, is no startups. It’s [00:21:47] Lazlo Toth: [00:21:47] scallops. Notice a lot of your countries are waiting [00:21:52] Chris Ward: [00:21:52] for other EU countries to decide on whether to allow Huawei on their, on their networks to supply parts, uh, Norway [00:21:59] Lazlo Toth: [00:21:59] being an EA member, but not an EU member. [00:22:02] Chris Ward: [00:22:02] What is your position? Are you, are you, are [00:22:03] Lazlo Toth: [00:22:03] you waiting [00:22:04] Chris Ward: [00:22:04] for the EU to make a decision or [00:22:05] Lazlo Toth: [00:22:05] do you feel free enough to make your own on this? On this part? [00:22:09] Nikolai Astrup: [00:22:09] Well, my Christmas, all of our operators will have chosen their vendors. So to our operators are already chosen vendors on the last one, the biggest ones they’ll choose before Christmas. [00:22:18] So we don’t exclude any, uh, vendors. Uh, on the five GS for 4g, we have a good dialogue with the operators on the security was a discussion on securities with them, not with the [00:22:31] Lazlo Toth: [00:22:31] vendors. And you, you set the [00:22:33] Chris Ward: [00:22:33] set the standards for security from the government side, and the operators will have to follow those. [00:22:40] Then [00:22:40] Nikolai Astrup: [00:22:40] we’d talk to the operators. And then the opposite is true stir vendors. Uh, but the government does not exclude any vendors [00:22:47] Chris Ward: [00:22:47] right. [00:22:47] Lazlo Toth: [00:22:47] Okay. [00:22:48] Chris Ward: [00:22:48] Thanks. I’m also completely different question and something actually that I pick up from the your panel to something that interests me a lot. You talked about, um, with the rise of AI, we need to make sure that algorithms and machine learning models are diverse. [00:23:04] Um, how, how would you recommend to Norway’s on innovators and entrepreneurs or from the region. To increase diversity in a region that is traditionally fairly monocultural. Well, how can they learn and change those models? [00:23:20] Nikolai Astrup: [00:23:20] Diversity is about many things. It’s also about, um, gender balance. So we need to recruit more women into technology. [00:23:28] The field of ecology. Uh, we’re working on this, but I think this is very important because AI. Um, it’s going to affect every aspect of society and we can’t leave to half of the population to develop solutions for the whole of society. So this is something we need to work on. Not only Norway, but I think also in tech communities, uh, all over the place. [00:23:48] And the, of course, I was just on a panel. Well just men on there, mostly men in this conference. So I think it’s not only about a multiculturalism, it’s also about gender diversity. Both are important. And the example I used in the panel I think illustrates this very well, uh, with the sensor developed by a white man who hasn’t tested, if it works on different color of skin. [00:24:13] Uh, and if we are to get that kind of bias into our. The algorithms that we’re supposed to use for, for instance, public sector decision making that affect people’s lives, then we have a huge problem. So we need to get it right from the outset. Otherwise, people are going to lose trust. And I think trust is maybe the most important capital, uh, in the age of digital transformation. [00:24:37] Chris Ward: [00:24:37] You weren’t. So you’re the minister [00:24:39] Lazlo Toth: [00:24:39] of digitalization of Norway and your neighbors in Denmark [00:24:42] Chris Ward: [00:24:42] and have a, an [00:24:43] Lazlo Toth: [00:24:43] ambassador [00:24:44] Chris Ward: [00:24:44] tech ambassador in Silicon Valley. Do you see, do you see it [00:24:46] Lazlo Toth: [00:24:46] as a trend of the government [00:24:48] Chris Ward: [00:24:48] paying more [00:24:49] Lazlo Toth: [00:24:49] attention to the tech and would, do you think Norway would also consider a sentence, someone to Silicon [00:24:53] Chris Ward: [00:24:53] Valley to load the, your interests? [00:24:56] Nikolai Astrup: [00:24:56] We have a big office in silicone Valley. On the, uh, so they, they perform much of the same task that the dangers taking, buses, dust. And of course, we have a minister digitalization. So, uh, that Trump’s, uh, like ambassador, I guess. But, uh, yes, this is going to be more important on, is going to be important also because in my view, uh, we need to engage more with the, the big tech companies on many. [00:25:24] Important issues. Uh, but in order to realize the potential of digitalization, we need to work, uh, horizontally, not only vertically, how governments work vertically with a ministerial and top care responsibility, but digitalization is about what happens between those verticals and the, that’s why the prime minister of Norway decided to, um, uh, create this post in January. [00:25:49] It was super hard to go from where we are today to where we want to be. Then we need to, uh, step up our work. Uh, and there’s lots of action. [00:26:00] Chris Ward: [00:26:00] I did see on your initial profile, I’m not seeing it in your badge about, um, you had it here. I think the, uh. Oh anyway, the, um, convergence, and I was actually interested to know what that meant to you or what it used to mean is you’re not having it on your badge now, so maybe you’ve changed a job, but what does convergence mean? [00:26:23] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:26:23] Usually the F 40 or 5g they just like a remind me what made them over kind of technology. Or it does like information technology or communication and technology, but the convergence means, uh, working with the other industries, like automobile industries or like a fashion industry or education has care. [00:26:45] It doesn’t matter. So, which means the, it is expands to the other industries. That’s the definition of what the convergence for me. [00:26:55] Chris Ward: [00:26:55] And you had some interesting examples in the presentation you did earlier for entertainment as well. Um, which I think you already have in Korea, virtual performers, and are they popular. [00:27:07] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:27:07] Oh, he’s enough. Happier about the injury tariff telecom operator, would you like to show off for like a reason? So I think they’re still very expensive, which means the fourK video, for example, they have to multi cameras on it. They have to your 10 stitching on it. If you’ve got, so you mean the, you know, under estimate, the heat stitching means the one video on better to make smoother, smoothly connect each other. [00:27:32] Yeah. So the, in the case of VR. And then you can have a VR gear, and then you can see the 360 degrees on it. If you just stay there and then you can just to watch this and you can watch this France Taiji and then you can just turn around and you can see the audience is very complicated or so, sounded very complicated for them for, you can just watch the in front, you can have to hear the front sound and then you can just to turn around your head. [00:28:01] And you can just do in the right the year. And then, so it’s very huge means they cost a lot for making the kind of like a virtual stadium or like a virtual, either like a dance, like the teachings. So for example, IGO for us case and that they. We invest a lot of money in this special study on it, and then the reader, either scars is a tensing and then just the customer is, is toning the dance and they’re just too missing to get a video. [00:28:28] They have to make like a timestamp on it. And then, and then in the customer, I could in the. I cleared a smart phone and then they can walk in together in the dancing together and the talking each other. Kind of a very, some nice feature for them. But the problem you just tear expensive that another application is you. [00:28:48] I imagined to be pro like postural, like the, the presentation the capacitor. Broadcasting services on it previously and then they can do that. But they’re still, they’re not the high quality because of AMR. Loading speed is very remediating in the air. So, but nowadays they can send it more than 20 minutes, which means even though it’s more screen, and do they need a more than like a muscle close to Tony max in real time so they can get on T speeding so they can be very cylinder. [00:29:19] Chris Ward: [00:29:19] It’s actually interesting point. I spend a lot of time uploading audio and video video. We have 200 mic down, but less than 20 up, which is always the way, cause most people don’t do much uploading. But [00:29:34] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:29:34] it’s a huge means. I bet that best airport is guaranteed as cute. It’s very important. So sometimes these are walking very red and there’s some places in it doesn’t work. [00:29:44] It’s not guaranteed, but there’s still ice in Dayton, the fives, you know? And then. They’re just attached to the, I know the, it’s just the telecom operators for INSEARCH, they kind of, a service in that is too little because a lot of us, some influencers in the full reason for pyro, or is it more than like 10 minutes, like 10 a 100,000 or something? [00:30:05] Dedicate most guys and then they just telecom and then around the sun. The nation sent in help us an interview or like the ceremony interview or. Just some like last features on it. I think that that’s the very nice pizza for the first us to Tufts, Sony, but isn’t it the next Tevye is a [00:30:24] Chris Ward: [00:30:24] more [00:30:25] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:30:25] a it depending on the graphics, I guess they are waiting for AR mr grasses or anything. [00:30:33] It’s too, because even though the horror range too, or like the rata with some devices coming out and then the like the fed is fired or we did a kind of a cell function setting. So he to me is a, if we’re just aware, aggressive center, real images should be a concept. That’s the very important or so. [00:30:50] Another one is, so now we’re looking Korea teaming. Gaming is gaining the popular and popular. Oh yeah, yeah. you don’t do it. Do you know why there is a computing power is some word you put on this. So usually people, they kind of like as chilling, like . Usually they have a sober and into wired connection, but the nowadays is getting into the higher speed on it. [00:31:15] So the data’s cut up the core and the day you started, but they need the more I could have. You have had the GPU or. Some do more than that. And then some, the batteries are Sony, so they would like a gold star. What about 80 silver? Yup. It’s in the year, but they still the wires and then they make us forget until the, even though the not too much. [00:31:35] I could chip you coming power in seven. So usually if you say the camping power offloading to , it’s a very similar concept for like, have you heard about the data off-roading. Data forwarding each means in the case of a three year, either the data’s data, there isn’t that guarantee there at that time. So if somebody had congested, they would like help redo wifi. [00:32:00] So they say that the, the, they see the data off-roading, it’s very, very similar concept to, they need a more complete power and that those ICO moving to the cloud and then they are using the, because of the guarantee, do the high speed. [00:32:14] Chris Ward: [00:32:14] Yeah. [00:32:15] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:32:15] At a time. Does the wireless period very roller, and so they cannot get on teeth. [00:32:19] They cannot the operating to the outer suburbs. So I think that the. That’s TV gaming. Nowadays, nowadays, streaming video is very common in the air tutorial. So next day we do. Seeming like a video game is awesome. The [00:32:36] Chris Ward: [00:32:36] current launches have had problems, but that’s fine. I mean, it’s, it’s new. Um, some of the points, the career has been held up. [00:32:45] Here a couple of times as a good example of a five to zero out and some of the points you made that dessert related to it, where geography, it’s relatively small. Most people are in a couple of areas. You have a consumer base who like to buy new things and you have a government that is pushing people to do it. [00:33:07] Which any of those, I mean, geography is not. Something people can change that much, but any, anything that you’ve learned that you think European countries could learn from to help their roll-outs? [00:33:18] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:33:18] Oh, how would you want a surprise doing that? When I travel with my wife, actually for UK for a month, and it’s even just to get out of the metropolitan area. [00:33:28] You thought it was even threes years, like cheers. [00:33:32] Chris Ward: [00:33:32] UK is one of the better places as well. [00:33:35] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:33:35] So I, at the time, I just using the Google maps on it, it doesn’t work anymore. So I just stopped my car in the downloading the whole like rocker mass and then stuck to the driving. So I think that the world concentrated on the [00:33:50] Even the Hauwei revel or so I don’t want to hurt coverages, honey they have to move to the some different cities or something. So I think that major I wrote, and then they kept guarantees, especially for, I was very surprised that the also. The subway. I think that’s always a very put on phrases, but it’s too, [00:34:14] Chris Ward: [00:34:14] London is famous for having no network on there and we live in, in Berlin and they actually have coverage. [00:34:21] Um, then how useful it is. But interestingly also, you showed the map of forgi coverage, which was pretty much everywhere. How long do you think it would take to have 5g to look the same? [00:34:35] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:34:35] I think that the just two, two years, I guess it’s a very similar way to the LTE cases because of, uh, uh, I didn’t mention about the reject the theory of the approach, changing their cellphone, usually eight months, whatever. [00:34:51] It’s crazy. I have two sons and uh, they always . And you know, the new phone, I think that the same feature, but then there’s like a Sunday changed their phone. So, which means the Abbott, we have a tattoo operation, a 50,000,050 50,000,050 minutes. So I think that already. The change the test two or three years in the Soviet chains. [00:35:17] Actually we didn’t two years. I guess. What is the, another key factor is a millimeter wave. So it’s very key concept. Also wrote a shorter seal mentioned about the the millimeter wave. It’s a very different characteristics of the eyecare, the way propagation never. So I think that there’s a board, Ben, this is a. [00:35:38] The each operator on is already a hundred Meggers. Then these frequent shocks are the Sony and the Fitch means they can get onto . You gotta be pressed with level, but there’s still, the problem is the messaging. The message Mio has a little bit pockets on the very sharp pimps on it, which means it’s very hard to cover. [00:35:58] Or earlier. So I think that the, in the, especially the dance area or like metropolitan area, they can use to come together, you do below six and then the millimeter wave, they can be very extended to the award and 20 gigs can be better because you’re seeing the stadium like a football stadium or something. [00:36:21] And then even though you have more than like 10 base stations over there. Last year, the in the world and 50,050 pieces come together. It’s very hard to working for like a, the more vendors and then you can be ready to work. We do some, like I believe, to way of vendors sending supporting media together. [00:36:41] So I think that there is very, to the next step. Should it be. So you have to be more concerned about the more Bendis. So our government already started to, some were looking for the ball band, this poor family services son. So I think that there may be next year, another frequent reactions. We are coming out in the public. [00:37:03] Chris Ward: [00:37:03] Two more questions. Uh, one, I’ll just go from that. Um, you’ve mentioned some, some ideas that five G will help facilitate, uh, in the future. Are there any others that you think elect very early or no one is really doing it but you think will also become because of it? [00:37:25] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:37:25] They have some flub noise, even though there is a spy of five is a phone, and then I cannot find any difference because of a, I already mentioned in the Sunday Penner or muster that would in 95 percentage applications is Irma scanty, the LT [00:37:43] So I think that they have to find the more valuable. Variable application. So using the word Bendis push them for four more than I think that the MOC was service. I mentioned it. I think that though, without that, and then I think that another characteristic is rural latency, and then I can work the more I could. [00:38:04] Some connectivity. It can be, if it means that the B to CS level, it’s more and more attribute to be services can be getting into because of the network. Traffic is a very good function, sunny. So hitting means a, they can own their, like a characteristic. They can make their own networks using the nettles rice for example. [00:38:24] I have some like IOT services on it. Very low when Wendy’s, but the, they need more connectivity, but it’s not a adapted to directly to the ICU in half the mobile world services on it. So they can have a belly roll when this is a Netflix pricing level, and then they can just to the nationwide subsists on it so they can imagine, and then they can make a beating smarter. [00:38:50] By their own. So I think that that’s a very good point for like next forever. But the normal use your customers. I think that the, it’s very hard to find the sum, the years. So I think that they, especially some the telephone operators, is that we’re focused on the VR AR and the more immersive that is the device dependent services. [00:39:13] Suddenly they’re waiting. [00:39:14] Chris Ward: [00:39:14] And on that, I mean, some of the three examples that are often discussed for. Good 5g rollout the us, Korea, China, all three of those countries make devices. Um, Europe doesn’t really make any handsets or any devices. Do you think that’s some of the reason that those three countries have have been able to roll that much quicker because they can supply everything. [00:39:42] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:39:42] Even though in the WD to Sweden where I could feel it ended, I always went a supply because of the very sort of Mecca for like a Hanford even though, look, yeah, or something [00:39:56] previously, but then they are very practical guy. Or progress? How would I say a program programming from programattic each means not just for like a showing of too much yet because it does, it works for me and then they just keep it for, even though I was very surprised in them in a Nokia, like a very. [00:40:20] The higher level. Yeah. Using this chair, like very old fun for 30 or 40 years old. Yeah. But in Korea, especially working with the operator where like they usually change their phone every six months or something because they would like the have or some new experience for the new phone, but they have a steer for the yield so I think that it’s a really, some diplom like culture, I guess. [00:40:49] They’re more practical, not just poor because of eating up, and then it’s the icing that is from coming from the, maybe their own culture or something. Maybe [00:40:59] Chris Ward: [00:40:59] you upgrade too much. [00:41:02] Lazlo Toth: [00:41:02] Yeah, so I’m , I’m head of public policy for Europe. We introduce some , I mean, you might know, may represents mobile network operators. [00:41:13] Yeah. Global association. And we have offices all around the world. I’m based in Brussels because of the fall of Sango Europe. Yeah. And then, uh, we work together with our members and mobile operators, my areas to, uh, to engage with regulators, to, uh, discuss best practice, obviously approach. [00:41:34] Chris Ward: [00:41:34] I think actually there’s a lot of people, this is mostly what they’d be interested in digging a bit more into. [00:41:41] Well, what is the GSM? Me? What is it in? What is it there for? [00:41:47] Lazlo Toth: [00:41:47] Yeah. I mean, beyond, it’s not just a kind of a policy shop. So, um, we also work together with all members, uh, to support dam in developing new and innovative services, uh, such as, uh, in identity. We have to circle back on act or a, an IOT, uh, area. [00:42:08] And beyond that, we also have, there was a conference, a convening, the industry, the, you mentioned the mobile world Congress we discussed earlier, but also some other, um, conferences. Uh, we did one in Los Angeles, in London, Shanghai, and some smaller events. They also have, um, a data and research unit called the intelligence. [00:42:30] Uh, uh, the aim here is to, um. To collect data and assess them, provide reports and backgrounds. So the latest trends we also do now, [00:42:43] Chris Ward: [00:42:43] do you sit between regulators and government or what, what are the components of the industry? They work most of it, [00:42:51] Lazlo Toth: [00:42:51] I, I’m mostly work with the, um, uh, with the regulatory departments and people in the, uh, mobile operators. [00:43:00] Um, we discuss the, um. Uh, the latest challenges, uh, they face in different markets and, and also at EU level. And, uh, while we try to come up with a bit of an industry view, uh, and, uh, advocate those, uh, to relevant policymakers and regulators. Well, we are also active in a number of States, of course, in Brussels with the various, um, uh, institutions, but also, uh, time to time. [00:43:29] We, what was it? Um, some of the capitals [00:43:32] Chris Ward: [00:43:32] of the States of Europe. I mean, [00:43:33] Lazlo Toth: [00:43:33] member States of Europe. I mean, well, I’m, I’ll cover Europe. I mean, when I was a Senator, I have colleagues, uh, peers doing similar things in Latin or Asia or [00:43:45] Chris Ward: [00:43:45] Africa, [00:43:46] Dr Suncheol Gweon: [00:43:46] along with the, the, um. , [00:43:50] Chris Ward: [00:43:50] particularly to trade buddy a urbanization. [00:43:54] Lazlo Toth: [00:43:54] There’s this trade association, but [00:43:56] Chris Ward: [00:43:56] as long as it existed for, [00:43:58] Lazlo Toth: [00:43:58] ah, that’s a good question. Uh, I should know by heart. Um, yeah, I think it was established. Um, um, 1980 something. I need to look it up. [00:44:14] Chris Ward: [00:44:14] That’s fine, [00:44:15] Lazlo Toth: [00:44:15] but, um, you know, it’s, um, uh, I think, um, we grew a lot over the past few, few years is the mobile community, uh, find some more and more, uh, interest in working together, collaborating on different areas. [00:44:34] Chris Ward: [00:44:34] And, um. Okay. What are some of the biggest challenges you find in Europe? And if you have any kind of knowledge of how they might compare to other regions your colleagues work on, that’d be fantastic. But if not, it’s fine. [00:44:50] Lazlo Toth: [00:44:50] What I see, um, there are. Similar challenges. Um, and I regularly talk to the other colleagues in other regions just to, uh, to learn from each other what works, what not, what are the challenges they face. [00:45:03] And then, uh, I’m surprised that, uh, many of the challenges were similar. Maybe the aspect or the approaches are different. Well, Europe is, is unique in a way that, um, there is, um, a legal framework for, you know, for, for the union, uh, which allow, uh, it’s kind of a more. Harmonized regulatory approach cause the region, um, um, this is very important. [00:45:31] And, uh, and we always advocate for, or a more harmonized, uh, policies in utero because, um, many of the mobile operators work across, uh, different, uh, uh, countries. So, um. Four for a cost and other reasons. It’s important for them that, uh, there’s some consistency in the continent. Uh, there’s, Lord has, I mean, I mean, telecoms is one of the, uh, uh, uh, the sectors, which is, uh, uh, most, I mean the deregulatory Simos you harmonize across Europe. [00:46:07] If you compare the other six pastille, uh, scope or digital, seeing the market is far from complete. Uh, there are major differences of, we look at the, for example, spectrum policy, which is very important for mobile operators. Uh, the way in which, um, uh, governments decide to, um, make available spectrum of the conditions and the, and the way they, uh, they award, uh, frequencies are very different. [00:46:38] Chris Ward: [00:46:38] What you do is a small part of the. The kind of bigger complication, but this is tendency to think of the European union as one place when it’s not, [00:46:45] it’s [00:46:46] Lazlo Toth: [00:46:46] 27, 28, [00:46:47] Chris Ward: [00:46:47] 26 different places. Um, all with different ways of doing things. While some of the Teleco’s existing with them, they’ll have their own policies and their own styles and things like that. [00:47:01] And how do you tread that line between wanting to have, especially in the. The fields of telecommunications where it’s largely going to be advantage people in the industry, but the countries want to do it their own way as well. And is it a fine line you have to do . Trading quite a lot to get the balance right. [00:47:21] Yes. [00:47:22] Lazlo Toth: [00:47:22] That’s, well, that’s the one I think you hit the right point is one of the issues. Um, you know, we obviously they are, member States are different than, uh, I mean, it’s not, not. You can’t have a digital single market without, uh, a general, a single market. If you know some of the, uh, um, uh, uh, the inputs, the costs to deploying that works. [00:47:44] Let’s just real estate prices for four base stations plus sides, salaries. I mean, the telecom operators, I want the biggest employers. So. These are very different. Of course. So, um, but to some extent, we feel that somebody’s areas could be a harmonized, uh, um, a better, uh, across Europe. Uh, the, uh, the recently. [00:48:08] Adopted telecoms regulatory framework. The code, um, influenced some of these measures, other stuff in the right direction. But, uh, we expected, uh, uh, more and more harmonization, uh, [00:48:24] Chris Ward: [00:48:24] in Europe when it [00:48:25] Lazlo Toth: [00:48:25] comes to them. Oh, so you know, telecoms is a scale business. So, um, so that’s why it’s important that we see this, you know, in Europe is also scale. [00:48:39] I mean, the Euro competes with the U S in China, you know, the number of operators in the U S and China compared to the hundreds of operators in Europe. Definitely a challenge [00:48:51] Chris Ward: [00:48:51] with telcos. But. Um, I was thinking this the other day, I was [00:48:54] Lazlo Toth: [00:48:54] speaking to [00:48:55] Chris Ward: [00:48:55] someone from, from Korea. And I wondered if, if, uh, if some of the work in your, it would be easier if we had more ocular manufacturers as well. [00:49:06] It’s like China and Korea especially, are kind of the demand and the interest level. So people who make this stuff, cause sometimes, maybe even having all three in one place makes it easier. And then you’re a person of Nokia and Ericsson. But they’re not the biggest players and they don’t make really make in devices so much anymore. [00:49:26] Any of them. Um, I don’t know. Does that a missing piece in Europe, I think, or is it not really an [00:49:31] Lazlo Toth: [00:49:31] engineer? Well, I’m in. Um, and it was a lot of discussions about, um, um, you know, the, the, the supply chain and the vendors, not Asia and European, also close to Grove. And then, you know, well, what we see is that, uh, indeed those big players, like you mentioned, Ericsson, Nokia, or are our European once. [00:49:52] And, uh, uh, it’s very good. And also, uh, for us, what is important is to have a. A competitive supply chain where, um, uh, the prices will be set as competitive as companies with level will be innovation. So we, we always encourage, uh, uh, um, competition and more players in that space. Okay. [00:50:17] Chris Ward: [00:50:17] So we’re here at this 5g tepid tree of, um, the one that a little bit, I don’t know if you do your job. [00:50:25] One thing relates to it around 4g or. It feels like there’s, maybe it’s an age thing, just didn’t remember people talking about 14 cause I think paying attention. But do you think the, the, the interest and also you’ll make the time it’s taken to, to, to roll out the upgrades, is that the same or maybe a little bit longer? [00:50:48] A little bit shorter? [00:50:49] Lazlo Toth: [00:50:49] No, it is. I mean. Um, five G will be, um, more costly to deploy it in the previous generations due to the complexity of the network. And also, uh, the need for denser. Network to, to provide the, uh, the capacity of the fungi promises and because of the use of higher frequencies. So, um, uh, we have, uh, estimates and, um, for, for all the regions, Europe, according to numbers, um. [00:51:21] Yeah, I was doing well in terms of trials and commercial launches these days. We expect that by 2025, third of the, uh, the total connections in Europe, um, EV will be 5g. However, this will leave Europe, uh, trailing the, the leading, uh, FRG markets, us, Japan, South Korea, uh, which will, um. Have a 50, 60 adoption rates by the time. [00:51:47] So, um, definitely, um, uh, we encourage policymakers to help accelerate, uh, the deployment of 5g. There are certain measures maybe on the cost side, spectrum, uh, deployment. There are a lot of, uh, administrative barriers, uh, to, uh, uh, licensing base stations. This is rubber hits the road and, and the physical network. [00:52:11] This is built. Um, this is also a challenging topic. We talked about fragmentation, harmonization, because, um, in many cases it depends on not only at national level, but, uh, local, uh, or authorities. But, uh, in some of the member States, it takes, uh, like a develop 24 months to, um. They’ve got a license for a new base station. [00:52:34] I mean, these procedures needs to be streamlined and simplified in order to accelerate their own [00:52:40] Chris Ward: [00:52:40] attitude. Is that comparable to the past or is that a newer. Speed. [00:52:44] Lazlo Toth: [00:52:44] No, no, no. That’s, that’s, that’s historical. And then, but, but the, I talked about the, the need for a denser network. And so that’s why, uh, in 5g so this challenge will be compounded because you need more base station. [00:52:59] I mean, there is one, uh, measuring to telecoms, uh, codes, utopian U, uh, regulatory framework on, on small cells. We are waiting for the Ames amounting act for that, which will help. Um, uh, uh, license. I mean, there’ll be no licensing for that. Um, and at least on PRI licensing, Bata uh, this will not solve all issues because for the coverage we also need to do micro sites. [00:53:27] And [00:53:27] Chris Ward: [00:53:27] the people that you work with, do you feel is still enthusiasm or are people getting a little bit tired of the place. [00:53:35] Lazlo Toth: [00:53:35] Well, I mean, um, you know, I talked about the, uh, the expectations about, um, uh, uh, take up. And I’d think these, this reflects to you the realities of the European market today. Many of the, um, some of the countries like the Nordics will be closer to the. [00:53:51] To the leading player as Bata. Many of the operators are still migrating customers to 4g networks. Competitive pressures remain. High. Revenues return to the negative territory in recent quarters underestimates, uh, to 2025 is data revenues will meet, some will be, uh, probably flat. So, uh, uh, I think it’s a challenging, uh, uh. [00:54:19] No backdrop to, uh, in this 5g race, at least for Europe. That’s why it’s important. Uh, you know, how regulators and policymakers, uh, uh, uh, can help. I mean, we, we see the political ambition, you know, they talk the talk, but we also need some specific concrete measures, uh, that will help [00:54:40] Chris Ward: [00:54:40] that in an ideal world. [00:54:43] Also acknowledging. And some of the positives that you’re deferring to technology like privacy and security and things like that as opposed to say to monitor channel limits, really worry about is things have to look quick. Um, what would you, what would you change to make the process much easier. [00:55:03] Lazlo Toth: [00:55:03] I think, I mean, in Europe we have a solid foundation for all these, you know, the privacy and security regulations. [00:55:10] We have the, uh, the GDPR, which is becoming kind of the word standard. Well, we, um, uh, and, and, you know, we also believe mobile operators, that the GDPR is, is the right. Regulatory framework for the privacy. Um, what we would encourage, um, opera policymakers to look at these issues in the data economy or more horizontal vases instead of, um, I mean, you know, these things are not only sector specific telecoms stuff. [00:55:43] You know, we talked a lot about the five G. um. The L a transform other industries and the verticals and all these horizontal things. So, uh, what we would encourage to, um, [00:55:54] Chris Ward: [00:55:54] uh, [00:55:55] Lazlo Toth: [00:55:55] to develop framework horizontally across sectors and also, uh, uh, consistency video or the existing, uh, legislation, the GDPR. [00:56:08] Chris Ward: [00:56:08] Um, so. If, if this event is on next year, what do you hope will have happened in the next year? [00:56:16] Lazlo Toth: [00:56:16] Oh, that’s a good question. That’s a good question. [00:56:19] Chris Ward: [00:56:19] I’m not sure how much has changed in the past year, so you just need to know what you hope would change in the next year. [00:56:25] Lazlo Toth: [00:56:25] I’m in a fall for next year. Um. [00:56:30] Chris Ward: [00:56:30] We [00:56:31] Lazlo Toth: [00:56:31] have, um, we’re looking at a new, there’s a new, um, uh, garden in Brussels, new commission, and, uh, just the past couple of days. [00:56:39] Yeah. So, um, uh, I think it’s a, it’s very important. It can give new impetus to the, uh, uh, to detect policies. We see very good, um, signs. For example, uh. Uh, ideas around, I’m more focused on European industry or policy, uh, that will be very important, uh, to help Europe to strengthen some of the, uh, the capabilities in the digital area. [00:57:06] Um, I don’t know, cloud or supercomputing or, or other things. So, um, by next year, I hope we will see the first, uh, results of the work of the new commission. And, uh, and, uh. I can only hope that will, [00:57:21] Chris Ward: [00:57:21] um, [00:57:22] Lazlo Toth: [00:57:22] change the, uh, the policy environment to the better, uh, for the
[00:57:26] Chris Ward: [00:57:26] and all the member States agree with it. [00:57:31] Let’s see. [00:57:32] Lazlo Toth: [00:57:32] Let’s see. Shit, [00:57:38] Chris Ward: [00:57:38] those were my three interviews from the floor at five detective tree a couple of weeks back in Latvia in Riga. Hope you enjoyed that. I have a few articles coming out. I have my revisitation with Linux. I have my end of year roundups coming out. I have, ah, a recent, uh, write the docs podcast episode and a lot more coming up very soon. [00:58:00] I have actually some posts I just did on a tech writing flow developers. Again, uh, you can find those on my writing page at Kristen, sheila.com/writing no more events for the year. I think my first confirmed event is going back to South by Southwest in March. Maybe going to see us if I can get flights last minute at a good price, but it’s looking increasingly unlikely that that will be the case, so not 100% sure what my next event will be. [00:58:27] But in the meantime, you couldn’t find way more about me at Christian dot com support. What I do, I read my previous writing, listen to previous episodes of the podcast. I may have one more before the end of the year. Um. I think I probably will. So I won’t wish you good wishes right now, but I wish you happy Christmas. [00:58:45] I won’t wish you happy new years, but I wish you happy Christmas. I hope whatever you do, however you celebrate it, whether you like it or not, I’m a bit of a Christmas Grinch, so I won’t go too too into depths of celebratory speech here. Enjoy it. And until next time, if you have been, thank you very much for listening. .